Zombo第四轮分析

yueyang126

.....以前我都不理解为什么各个组织都爱转他的评论,现在才明白....全世界MS就他一个人写了这么长...不转对不起我阅读花的功夫
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/ @" X$ @2 E9 c+ n/ ~1 m; X% n我今天没空翻译,谁有能力就翻译下,没人翻译我明天回来翻译

2 ?5 W( l0 }+ a3 iThis has been a great round, and the decision will be difficult. I'm sure sure that for each battle, you can give arguments for and against each participant. Out of these arguments, some of them will be true and agreed upon by everybody, but how important it is is a difficult choice. How to value a combo's strong points and say if they balance out the bad points somehow depend on each viewer's value for these ideas.

Let's start with the easiest battle to judge IMO:
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Spinnerpeem vs Taeryong:

To me, the biggest appeal of Taeryong is the fact that his spinning looks natural. By that I mean that when you look at his combo, you see tricks flowing one unto another very smoothly. In other words, his spinning is predictable, but in a "feel good" kind of way. Just like when listen to Mozart, it's easy to listen because Mozart plays the notes you want to hear, so to speak. Now I feel that his combo for this round is worse for the previous two. The main reason for this is that he makes combo drag too long. After 10 seconds or so, it's like he doesn't know what else to do, so he repeats the same sequences with only small variance. The biggest proof of this is the tipped sonic reverses reoccuring at an interval. Now I'm sure that did a longer combo because people criticized him for it, but this was obviously not the right solution to go about it.

, l, H" M# |6 O! e8 @6 rSpinnerpeem's combo is very good, although I can't say that personally it made an impact on me. I see it as an evolution of everything he's done so far and pushing the difficulty enveloppe yet again. To win this battle, he has done more than enough, but I think he's missing something that needs to be addressed ASAP (starting from next round). Usually I tell people to build combos by constructing smaller mini-combos and finding interesting ways to link those mini-combos together. Spinnerpeem does a lot of them, you can deconstruct his combo pretty easily into those kind of chunks. The problem I think is that he is too near-sighted in the construction of those minicombos that he doesn't see the big picture. Yes, using mini-combos is a solid way of building a combo, but you also need to have a bigger picture. And then when you have all those mini-combos at your disposition, you need to think of your bigger idea and ask yourself if a particular mini-combo belongs or not, and where does it belong in the combo. For peem I don't really have that kind of feeling: I get more the feeling of someone trying to jam the most amount of insane tricks in 25 seconds. There's no real unification idea that strings all the sequences together. The other problem I see is that he relies too much on "preset" mini-combos; mini-combos that were programmed beforehand and that were designed to look good on its own. And then he just takes those presets and "copy-pastes" them together. I think you gotta be a bit smarter than that: you can use preset combos, but don't blindly put everything that was in that preset. Take the time to analyze each trick in that mini-combo and ask "do I really need to put that? is there a way to make it better?".

/ r' M' W, r) k' \- v7 H$ KWinner: Spinnerpeem, easy.
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Dongza vs Answer:
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This is a battle where you can easily find arguments for one side or the other based on the criterias. But how you weight the arguments is a different thing. For this battle, you can see that Dongza has perfect smoothness, while Answer makes several mistakes (most noticeable at :10, . But not only that, but Answer chose to use a LOT of aerials in his combo. Everytime you catch an aerial, you lose flow whether you like it not. IMO Answer went a bit too overboard with the aerials, especially the ones at the end (the two at :20 were too much I think and they weren't so great to look at). One way to remedy this problem is to make interceptions (you don't catch the aerial, it goes straight in the next trick), but those are extremely difficult (reference: A13X in round 2). Answer does have a few of them though notably the finisher.
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What Answer lacks in smoothness, he makes up in difficulty. Making a consistent combo with that many aerials is difficult, so it's quite a feat he managed to film this combo. Dongza's difficulty usually comes from his abnormal speed, but for this video he slowed down. There are still some difficult tricks especially the ones that go around the hand though. But I still think Answer has a more difficult combo. Creativity-wise, I don't think neither participants did particularly well, but Answer certainly did better in that regard.
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7 w3 `3 E" w& F2 GEffectiveness-wise, I see Answer in front. The reason for that is that there are more highlights in Answer's combo than Dongza. Dongza's combo feels very flat to me; it's very busy, it moves a lot, but nothing stands out, and before you know it, it's over. Answer you can see a better structure which highlights some of the bigger aerial tricks, like the swivel one towards the end.
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/ [, b0 Z! ?- W+ xAnswer's video is slightly off-camera, but I don't feel like it's a big concern, you can still see his combo very well.

So now that you have those arguments, it's up to you to value them. I personally feel that the difficulty of Answer will overcome its mistakes, so I'm giving this one to Answer.
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: U# V( c; j$ h9 @Winner: Answer.

- h: }4 ^" r5 LEriror vs Supawit127:

The first thing that has to said is the remarkable perseverance and determination that Eriror has shown to be able to produce such a high quality video while being very sick. Sure it feels a bit rough, but there are some great things in that video. It takes more than talent, it takes a strong will to be able to film this under such conditions. That being said, the external factors have no bearing whatsoever on the results: all that matters are the videos, so let's get to that.

) L3 T4 i) B# ]' _  d. z* P4 jEriror's video is smooth in general, except that dreaded :19. Let's face it, it's a terrible mistake, a mistake that will require significant advantage to offset. Fortunately, I believe that 2p2h is that advantage. The whole sequence is just so well executed and the mirror effect is well done. Although you have to had a con on top of that too, and that's the camera screen.
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As for Supawit127, I personally like his spinning better than the other thais. I feel like he's trying a lot more than the others to really think about the overall structure of the combo and how to put some life in his combo. Now for this combo in particular, I think it's well done but I can' say much more than that. I loved the intro and the finish, but everything in between was pretty much average (although well executed). I think it's ok but it leaves a lot of opportunity for Eriror to win.

Now for Eriror, apart from the 2p2h, I feel the rest of the combo is great too. I can see how each trick was put into place and how it contributes to the overall effect. The finisher was strong highlight for me, because the swivel seems to come from nowhere, so it's really the way it was executed that makes it look good.

# R3 w, y/ H1 U9 r9 O. n  OIMO this battle boils down to how good do you value Eriror's 2P2H and his mistake. IMO it erases it completely and allows Eriror to win.
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Winner: Eriror.
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* P% M9 E4 |# K+ SMinwoo vs Fratleym:
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Ok first of all I have to say that Minwoo's combo is my favourite for this round. This is because personally I love spin transfers. It is a concept I have worked on for many years and I'm happy to see someone who execute it so well. That aside, I am also frustrated at this combo, because of the inacceptable error of leaving that last palmspin in. That palmspin, not only it is not executed well, has no business in this combo at all. The combo already ended on a sweet off-hand trick, there was no need to pursue it further, not to mention it created a huge stop. What makes this error particularly frustrating is that the palmspin could easily have been cut off from the video, it's not even a mistake you have to refilm for. I fail to see any value this palmspin brings to this combo, it has none. To me it has the same effect as someone doing finger gestures to signal success at the end of their fingers; totally irrelevant to the combo. I did consider the idea of a "fake ending" here, but it doesn't feel like Minwoo had such an intention and it certainly didn't have that kind of impact. Unfortunately, palmspin, unlike finger gestures, is still pen spinning so it must be considered as part of the combo, and it will have negative impact on the results. In fact, it could possibly cost Minwoo the match, because this battle is very very tight.

The only other really noticeable error is Fratleym at the end of the fingercross sequence. However, I'm willing to believe that his overall smoothness offset this error because of the difficulty of making his linkage smooth. The entry into the fingercross is spectacularly smooth and harder to get smooth than anything Minwoo has done IMO, and so it compensates for this error.

5 }8 Q0 |. ]2 Q* `1 ]1 ?& I, k' z6 |Now to me, because of the unbelievable high quality of both combos, the winner will be determined by whatever edge it has over his opponent. And this edge I believe is the special feature of each combo and how they fare against each other. Namely, Fratleym's fingercross vs Minwoo's spin transfers. Now when I look at the highlight of each combo, I believe that Minwoo has the slight edge. Let me explain.
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& \9 d( m- ]* b8 O/ d+ KFratleym's fingercross sequence is amazing but I think that if you really think hard about it, the most amazing things about it is its entry and its exit. By entry I mean the great T4 half-tap entry into fingercrossed position and by exit I mean everything following the mistake into the finisher. But the actual fingercross sequence itself, the middle, I didn't find so great. I find that the biggest potential of fingercross is the idea that you're now spinning with a hand with different fingers position and be able to exploit that either by pushing the pen or affecting its trajectory (using the crossed finger and the "loop" created by bending that finger). Just spinning with a finger crossed is good, but what makes fingercrossing great is when you start making tricks that are otherwise impossible because you have this finger sticking out on top of the thumb. This is what pushes fingercrossing to a higher level. And in this combo, the only use I've seen of the crossed finger as an immediate factor in the spin was when it was used to push to the pen back in normal rotation (. But to me, that's not enough I think, because its impact is too similar to just making a counter TA reverse. I would have loved to see either more interaction with the crossed finger or more difficult uses. I know there are, because Fratleym has shown some of them in some of his fingercross example videos. So to me, I don't feel like the fingercross idea was used at a high level in the combo. It did add difficulty to make the combo smooth, but not as much impact or appeal.


4 W3 ?! K6 w! P6 z4 h, p! y. ^6 BNow for Minwoo's spin transfers, I really feel this level of excellence. The ending is absolutely unbelievable, I just love the way the pen perfectly spins and "falls off" the base of the thumb into the left hand at :15 and the return spin back is just amazing (although could have been done a touch better). Minwoo really shows us the versatility of spin transfers (does it either back of hand and palm side). This is an amazing display of skill and I can't get enough of watching this combo.
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% n( U2 ]6 K1 a* P, V) XWinner: Minwoo.

wqy1579

Zombo也认为Answer能赢~用手机看了我好久……答案~~~答案~答案~答案~答案~答案~答案~答案~

) v; u, S6 ]" y6 k% D! j5 A[ 本帖最后由 wqy1579 于 2009-4-7 09:48 编辑 ]

笔尖之魂

外语能力实在是差…这个…基本不懂

hujunbin

只看懂这个就够了~ Winner: Answer

忆灵天

写的真有够长。。  answer对dongza那段。。  大概意思就是dongza 很有柔感 但是没什么特色难度， 而且其特色的速度也有所放慢 总体上比较平淡 answer 虽然小失误很多 air的连接不是太连贯 但是难度比较高 亮点较多  总体比较出彩 所以他比较看好answer

忆灵天

话说谁告诉我Imo是什么意思。。。

JJnoJB

原帖由 忆灵天 于 2009-4-7 13:20 发表

                               
登录/注册后可看大图

话说谁告诉我Imo是什么意思。。。

网络用语，是In my opinion的缩写
LS好像连帖？

轮回泪

一点也看不懂…答案必胜…

geass

dongza四轮的片都差不多 answer能赢

big619

zombo不愧是点评之王，从64强一路走来，看着他的点评对比赛有了更深的解读，zombo的点评很少带主观色彩，都是在合乎逻辑的范围内解说一个combo的优缺点，理性而有说服力。这次点评八强的篇幅丝毫不会比16强短，而且更加精彩。
4 Q6 P$ k# n5 q' J2 g个人非常喜欢的是peem对taeryong这场点评，点出了peem的软肋。
也只有当面对taeryong这样的pser，peem的缺点才会暴露得更加突出。
3 F: O5 q9 W8 h! K- czombo说peem有点像机器人，蛮形象的，combo组装机器人一只，peem是为了把一堆事先准备好的短combo组装在一起的，combo整体画面很复杂，加载的信息太多但是没有一条主线，显得有点错乱有时候很可笑，这一点上他需要向minwoo学习，minwoo的combo前后连贯一气呵成，招与招之间都是紧密联系浑然一体的，技术和创意也结合得很完美，minwoo很好的处理好每个阶段的自然衔接，又能体现了combo的整体画面，是很高超的combo大师，而peem的combo非常勉强地联系在一起的时候很多见，特别是第一轮对3shine的那个combo就非常可笑，前面做了一堆无谓的东西，最后就爆一个taihua，这一轮也是，准备了三段minicombo做亮点，中间却是一堆没有联系的东西作为连接，难怪法国人笑peem是只会堆积大招不懂什么是combo的pser。不过这种现象和参加泰国赛很有关，现场比赛就是不断的把断开的亮点一个个展现出来现场把观众和裁判震住就可以拿到高分，不过这种只要亮点不要连接的做法，放到可以一次次重复播放的世界杯来说就不一定会得到很高的评价，而且peem也没有拿出新的东西出来，都是以前用过的旧招居多。
8 _( l1 a6 D# u7 Q* r1 ]$ a而反观taeryong则是自我流的代表，我行我素，这一轮终于给出一个超过20秒的combo，不过也很好预测，依然是多air系，zombo举了莫扎特的例子，莫扎特的音乐特点是音符与音符，乐段与乐段之间衔接和谐自然，像流水般连贯，在欣赏上容易接受，taeryong采用的招看上去没有peem那么的多亮点，但是在连贯性做得好些，但是有好的一面就有坏的一面，再拿音乐做例子，taeryong的combo像和声走向很自然流畅的音乐，但是自然连贯有时候也带有容易预测的弊端，个人觉得一个音乐作品的和声走向太容易预测，只能说明太主流或太单一，从音乐性分析不是很好的作品，无论是带来惊喜，还是在多变上的价值，都不会很高，所以连贯自然的同时要怎么出其不意也是taeryong需要提高的地方。
# C: m8 h, s' h8 }2 ^最后得出一个对大家都很有用的思考，在编combo之前，是不是每一个招都值得放进combo中，这个招在combo中起到什么作用，和整个combo的搭配是否和谐，整体画面一致的同时要怎么别出心裁突出亮点？

[ 本帖最后由 big619 于 2009-4-8 04:08 编辑 ]

不懂忘记

他说Dongza这次比之前的慢了,虽然也很顺
Dongza也有很难的tricks,但是无法与Answer相比
Dongza相对缺乏创意 多变性和亮点,整个看起来效果差.
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( S/ h! q- v4 i5 o1 T) [Dongza's combo feels very flat to me; it's very busy, it moves a lot, but nothing stands out, and before you know it, it's over.

yueyang126

peem vs TY, 就好像一个在跳无比炫耀的街舞，蹦蹦哒哒，一会来一个疯狂的move，向对方挑衅。另一个则在自顾自的练着自己的交谊舞布，无视对方的挑衅

Angelico

这一回合的比赛很精彩，很难下决定。当然，我确定任何人都可以为任何一个比赛争辩或反对任何参加者。在这些争辩中，有些评论很真实，并且令人信服。但有多重要是一个艰难的选择。怎样去评价一个COMBO的优点和它们能否与COMBO本身的弱点相抵，在每个观看者的眼力都有不同的看法。

从在我看来简单点的Battle开始：
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% v6 c9 [' _- {3 Q9 w9 OSpinnerpeem Vs Taeryong：

& g  U! a% A) k- w! L1 M) i, U在我看来，Taeryong最大的看点是他转的看起来很自然。我指的是当你看他的COMBO的时候，Tricks一个又一个流畅的接连着。或者说，下一个Trick是可以预料到的，但又是一个不错的感觉。就像当我听莫扎特的时候很容易跟随着音乐，因为莫扎特会演奏你想听到的音符。所以说，我觉得他的COMBO在这个回合中没有像上两个回合的棒，主要原因是他让COMBO延长了。过了10秒后，他给我的感觉像是他不知道该做什么了，所以他重复着一样的动作，混合着一点小小的变化。tipped sonic reverses的反复出现证实了这一点。现在我确定他做了长一点的COMBO是因为其他人为此挑剔，但他的解决方式显然不是一个正确的做法。
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0 c; l2 r4 c; y0 @7 lSpinnerpeem的COMBO是非常好的。当然，我这么说并不是指它给我个人带来的影响。在我眼里它像是个Spinnerpeem所做过的全部的演进，难度又加深一级。想赢这个BATTLE，他做的比需要的还要多。但是我觉得他缺少了一些现在立刻需要注意到的（下个回合开始）。往常我会告诉他人运用小的COMBO去修补COMBOS，还有找一些有趣的方法使那些小COMBO连接在一起。Spinnerpeem经常这么做，你可以一块一快非常轻松的分解他的COMBO。问题是我觉得他的小COMBO的构成太短见，不见构图。是的，用小COMBO去构造一个COMBO是个很实用的方法，但是你需要一个更大点的构图。然后当你有了所有小COMBO的安排布置，你需要去构想一个更好的主义，还有问你自己小COMBO是否合适用，在哪里运用。对Spinnerpeem我没有那种想法：我更多的感觉到一个人试着去将一堆错乱的TRICKS挤进一个25秒的COMBO中。将所有动作串联在一起并不是只有一种方法。我发现的另一个问题是他太依赖已经准备好的小COMBO了；那些早期编制的小COMBO还有那些可以单独使用的设计。然后他只是将这些已经准备好的的COMBO复制连接在一起。我想你需要比“拷贝复制”聪明一些。你可以用预先准备好的COMBO，但是不要盲目的只用先前准备的。花时间去分析考虑每一个小COMBO中的TRICK，问自己“我必须用这个吗？有其他更好的方法吗？”

/ y, u6 A) K* {胜者：Spinnerpeem，轻松获胜。

9 u: o/ V- b3 yDongza Vs Answer

这是一个双方在标准上非常容易起争辩的BATTLE。但是怎样去衡量这些争论是不同的一件事。在这场BATTLE中，可以看到，在Dongza完美的流畅感的同时，Answer出了一些差错（在10秒的时候可以明显的察觉到错误）。但不只这点，Answer选择用了很多的Air在他的COMBO中。每一次接Air，无论喜不喜欢，都会失去动向。在我看来Answer过度运用Air了。尤其是结尾的那个（我觉得在20秒的时候，两个太多了。他们看起来没有想象中的好。）做中途拦截是一个可以纠正这个问题的方法（不接住Air，直接连进下一个Trick），但是它们难度极大（附注：A13X的第2回合）。不过Answer显而易见的完成了一些。

Answer的难度补助了他缺少的流畅感。用那么多Air去做一个前后相符的COMBO是有难度的，所以他能完成这个COMBO已经是一个不错的成绩了。Dongza的难度通常来自于他异常的速度，但是在这个片子中他的速度减慢了。还有一些难度高点的Trick可以做，尤其是绕手一圈的那个。我还是认为Answer的COMBO比较难。创造能力方面，我觉得两个选手都没有做的很好，但是Answer无疑是比较出色的那个。
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影响力方面，我看到了Answer位于上位。理由是Answer的亮点比Dongza多。我感觉Dongza的combo很平淡无奇。很忙碌，很多移动，但没有什么显眼的地方。在你发觉的时候，已经结束了。从Answer的COMBO中可以看到更有计划的结构使得一些大点的Air更加显眼，像是结尾前的旋转转轴。
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' M. I3 D+ t( E' D9 V  F0 E. pAnswer的片虽然有点出镜，但我不觉得没有什么影响性。依然可以清楚的看到他的COMBO。
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现在有了这些观点，这样评价在于个人了。我个人感觉Answer的难度级别将覆盖过那些失误，所以我选Answer。
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胜者：Answer

Eriror Vs Supawit127：
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首先需要说的是在Eriror生病的同时所表现出的坚持和决心制造了一个高水准的片子。虽然感觉有些粗糙，但包含了很多值得注意的地方。不只需要能力才干，它需要强烈的意志才能在如此环境下拍摄。当然，额外因素绝对不会影响到比赛成绩，结果在于片子。
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% t, I2 @+ d. j- z4 u" x: O除了噩梦般的19秒，Eriror的流畅感很普通。它是一个糟糕的错误，将会需要显而有意的突出才能补偿的失误。好运的，我相信2p2h（双手控两笔）是那个优势。出色的完成了所有动作，还有那个相宜的镜像。虽然在镜像的基础上你需要用一个小技巧，不过摄象机的屏幕做到了。
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& \" s4 Q2 w5 C$ e- F! o& f相对Supawit127，在泰国转笔折中我个人比较喜欢他。比起别人，我感觉他更多的尝试了去考虑COMBO完成的结构，还有如何在COMBO中注入生命。单指这个COMBO来说，我觉得它很优秀但是我无法做出更多的评论。我很喜爱引索和结尾，但是中间的其他部分很平均（虽然发挥的不错）。我认为它是不错但给了Eriror更多机率去取胜。
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5 g& O- Z1 j  h现在除了2p2h以外，对Eriror，我觉得COMBO的其他部分也很出色。我可以看到每一个Trick是怎样安排还有如何到达最终效果的。结尾的突出给我强烈的感觉，因为旋转转轴看不出是从哪里来的，所以完成的方式让整体看起来感觉很棒。
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# ~; k3 r' H) c) S/ W! p& L0 C4 z2 y% {在我看来这场BATTLE在于如何去评价Eriror的2p2h和衡量他的失误。我认为它（2p2H）完全磨擦掉了失误并让Eriror在这场中取胜。
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胜者：Eriror
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Minwoo Vs Fratleym：
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首先我要说的是Minwoo的Combo是这个回合中我偏爱的那个。因为我个人喜爱转移的spin。我花了很多年在这个理念上，我很高兴可以看到有人如此出色的完成这个动作。在这同时，我对这个COMBO也很失望，因为将它留到最后的Palm spin才做的这个不可接受的错误。那个Palm Spin不仅没有漂亮的做出来，而且在这个COMBO中毫无用处可言。COMBO已经在一个可爱的离手Trick中结束了，没有必要近一步进行，不必指出它制造了一个过度的结尾。最令人讨厌的是这个Paln Spin在剪片的时候可以轻而易举的剪掉，即使连重拍的必要都没有。我看不到这个Palm Spin给COMBO带来的任何价值。对我，它的影响像是一个人为了表达某种信息所打的手势一样，与COMBO完全没有关联。我有考虑过“假结尾”，但并不觉得Minwoo有这种意图，它完全没有任何这种感觉。不幸的，Palm Spin，不像是手势，它终究还是转笔，所以依然考虑是在COMBO整体的一部分。它将会给结果带来负面影响，极有可能让Minwoo败北，因为这场BATTLE的局势很紧张。

- P: s$ @) \9 o' t: C唯一明显的差误在于Fratleym结尾的手指交叉动作。不管怎么说，我希望他的整体流畅感可以补差掉这个失误因为他要做出流畅的连接是需要难度的。连贯的进入到手指交叉是相当精彩的，在我看来很难比Minwoo做的更连贯。所以它补助了这个失误。

! p# ^! R0 h) c7 E现在，因为两个COMBO不可相信的高水准，决定这场比赛的获胜者已经在于它会倾向与哪一边了。我相信这一线之差在于每个COMBO的特点与它们两者之间的对比。也就是Fratleym的手指交叉 Vs Minwoo转移的Spin。当我看到每个COMBO的突出点，我想Minwoo得到了那一线之间。容我解释。
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$ h  r0 h) }9 A; Y4 w: TFratleym的手指交叉动作非常精彩，但是我认为如果你仔细考虑它的难度，最精彩的是在于它的开始与结尾。我指的开始是漂亮的T4 HALF-TAP进入到手指交叉的位置，结尾是是所有连接着的失误一直到结束。但是手指交叉这个动作的本身，中间部分，我不觉得太出色。我觉得FINGERCROSS的最大潜力是你现在是用手的不同手指的位置来转笔，还有去利用堆或影响它的轨道（用交叉的受来还有弯曲手指所做出的“翻转”）的这个主意。只是用手指交叉的转笔是不错，但是重点在于当你用Fingercross来做Trick的不可能性，因为你有手指在拇指上面。这个是将手指交叉推进高等级的重点。在这个COMBO里面，我只看到交叉的手指在这个COMBO中显而易见的因素是它的运用将笔推回到了正常的轨迹（对我，这并不足以，因为它的影响力和做一个CONT TAR是相同的）。我希望可以看到更多的效果在手指交叉，或更高难度的运用。我知道难度是存在的，因为Fratleym表现多在他的一些手指交叉的片中。所以，我不觉得手指交叉的方法在这个COMBO中有一个高等级的运用。 它有增加了COMBO连贯性的难度，但是没有再多的影响或感觉了。
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* m3 D/ h$ V6 ~现在是Minwoo的Spin Transfers，我真的有感觉到这个卓越的级别。结尾绝对是令人不可相信的。我喜欢15秒时，笔完美的旋转，然后从拇指间掉落进入到左手，还有Return Spin Back的方式，只能用精彩出色来形容（虽然可以再做的好一点）。Minwoo真的为我们呈现出了Spin Transfers的学问与技巧。这是个出色的技巧演义，这个COMBO百看不厌。

胜者：Minwoo

pents135

谢谢LS的翻译

banana

Answer 难胜