2010世界杯计划帖

yueyang126

这是Zombo在UPSB贴出来的，我转载到这里，明年的世界杯我们当然要参加，所以讨论中我们也需要参与，我先发出来，然后我再慢慢翻译。
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: P! f0 W# V) N红字是我的注释 -水1
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I had the chance to work with Crash 2 years ago on the format of the inaugural World Cup. Although the next World Cup is still far, we still need to work on it early and make sure it's ready in time.
8 A, {9 n: y! z" x( u2年前我有机会和Crash一起建立了世界杯这个形式，虽然下一届世界杯还有将近1年的时间，但是我们需要提早开始讨论，保证到时候可以万事俱备
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The purpose of this thread is to share ideas on how the next WC may proceed. Nothing discussed in this thread should be taken as real or final. I would also like to get as many feedback, comments, suggestions as possible from as many communities as possible. Spread this thread around your local community and tell them to send me and Crash your ideas. This is an international event, therefore its format should be enjoyable to everyone.
这帖的作用是让大家提出对世界杯进程的建议，这帖里的任何意见并不代表最终计划。我希望能得到尽量多的转笔组织的回复和建议。将这帖发到你们自己的组织并把他们的意见反馈给我和Crash。这是一个国际性的活动，所以我希望他的模式可以让大家都满意。
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IMO, these are the main issues that need to be addressed for the WC
+ G# a2 t" C5 Z. A- K我认为，以下是我们要解决的一些问题

0 n! u3 a0 X+ q* r% J2 M- Communication: the main problem has always been communication. Because of the different communities, language has always been a restriction on the rules we could implement in the tournament. Not only does it limit what we can do in the tournament, it also makes it unfair for teams that don't understand the rules very well. There is also the problem of communication with the judges. Sometimes the judges themselves don't really understand how to judge due to language which results in poor results.
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) T( L0 E, v) d5 c, w-交流： 交流一直都是很严重的问题。因为不同组织来自不同国家，语言一直都限制着我们。不光因为他限制我们的发展，而且对不完全明白规则的组织也很不公平。另外，很多裁判也有交流问题，他们自己都不知道怎么去评判，导致让人不满意的结果。

3 z% W0 d* F( n-> Solution: Two things must be done,
: j. a' }' _) C解决方法：两件事可以实施：
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! p0 z1 N8 S/ o  ^1 h% W-- Full translation of the rules in all languages of participating communities as early as possible. This means we need to finalize the structure of the competition well in advance and ensure that every community has a translated copy of it. This is especially important for asian communities, since their english skills are often poor. Once we have those translations, they should be put on the main site and spread to all communities.
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$ u$ J. f7 T& L6 [7 {-完整的翻译规则到所有的语言，越早越好，这意味这我们要提早把规则和比赛流程置顶好然后保证每个组织都有一份翻译本。这对亚洲组织尤其重要，因为他们的英语比较差。翻译工作已完成，我们要立即把他传播到所有参赛组织去。
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-- Managers who understand English. If you remember, each team has a manager which serves as a spokeperson for that team with the officials (i.e. Crash). In the last WC, we had trouble finding good managers and I remember the Korean team was temporarily managed by Crash himself. It is important for each community to start finding a competent manager who can communicate easily in English. However, that is not the only job of the manager. S/he must also take care of the roster and make important decisions during the competition. Therefore, it would be unfair to demand that the manager speaks English if there is a better candidate at the tactical aspect of the position. Therefore, the manager role could be split into two persons, where one takes care of the actual management, and another as the spokeperson. Ideally, one person can fulfill both roles. Also note that the manager himself could be a spinner in a team. Therefore, one spinner could be doing the actual managing and an extra person is included just to communicate with the officials.
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-精通英语的领队。如果你还记得，每队都有一个领队作为发言人联系着组织者（Crash）。上次WC我们就很难找到合适的领队，比如韩国队最后就得要Crash自己来管理。所以每个组织都应该开始选择可以英文交流的领队了。但是这并不是领队的唯一职责，她/他还要管理这个队伍并在比赛中作出一些很重要的决定。所以一个领队如果只会英语是不够的。最好的是能找一个即可以做决定，又精通英语的领队。但如果实在不行，也可以把领队分成两个人。另外注意领队可以是参赛者其中的一名，所以可以由一名参赛者来管理队伍，另外一个人来和组织者交流。

（交流我认为对PSH不是什么问题。。。 ）


- Judging: we've always had problems with judging. One aspect of it is related to the communication problem above. The other is having a good system. One of the problems is the use of criterion. Because we try to simplify the scheme so that it is understandable by everybody, we use very simple criterion and make their weight all equal. Sometimes a judge has a well-defined opinion of a battle but it doesn't translate very well in the score. Furthermore, the idea of summing up points means judges who tend to give big grade differentials have more power than judges who grade more tightly. One judge who gives a -4 relative score in a battle offsets 4 other judges who give +1 score. The real problem here is that there is no set standard as to what a score represent. There's nothing that says what a score 9/10 is compared to 6/10. Maybe for some judge 7/10 is bad, for another it means good.

/ Q# l( n) w/ U/ B6 l9 ]-裁判评分：我们一直有这个问题。一方面是和上述的语言有关，另一方面则是评分系统的问题。其中一个问题就是打分的标准。我们一直都用一个较为简单的打分表让大家都可以很容易明白，每一项的比重都是一样的。这就造成了有时候一个裁判对一个battle有很好的见解，但是却无法通过打分表达出来。另外，最后统计打分，把所有分数加起来的行为会导致比分的不公平。那些把分差打的很大的裁判会比分差打的小的裁判有更大的权利。比如一个给一场battle打4分差的裁判就可以顶了4个打1分分差的裁判，这很不公平。这里的问题就是没有一个标准，告诉大家一分代表着什么。有些裁判认为7/10是很好的分数，有些却认为是差的分数。
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4 \5 y1 F  e" a9 d; b6 j-> Solution: There are many ways to fix this, here are a few ideas
解决方法：有很多解法，这是我的几个主意：
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* \' r' K3 R# O+ m4 C% }-- Use voting: by voting, I mean that each judge's opinion count as 1 only. We remove summing of score. This eliminates any "big difference" bias. The only issue with this is that it doesn't contain any nuance. Maybe 2 judges voted for a spinner but they didn't really feel strongly about their vote, but another judge noticed a very bad mistake and makes him vote against the same spinner with a strong opinion. In this situation, maybe the spinner deserves to lose.
-投票： 通过投票，每个裁判就等于只有一票，每个人的意见只算1分。不再统加分数，这就避免了上述的大分差问题。不过这个解法也有一个问题，就是缺少了多边性，比如2个裁判投了选手A，但是他们并不是很确定，但是另外一个裁判发现了选手A严重的问题，所以很确信的投了选手B。但是选手A还是会赢，这就可能会造成不公平。
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# T- y8 k" A# u  W5 B- E-- Eliminate criterions, use justifications: One idea would be that you cannot really quantify pen spinning. Therefore, judging is best described in words, not numbers. In this sense, judges should just write for each battle who deserves to win and why. The only problem with this kind of system is that it may give too much freedom to the judge to vote however he wants (possibility of corruption) and just write a random justification and say "that's my opinion" and there's nothing you can do about it. Also, the justifications should be written in the judge's own language and we can translate later (or english if possible).
-使用辩证的方法：转笔并不是能用分数来评价的，所以裁判可以通过写评论，而不是数字，来打分。每个裁判写一个短评并附上他认为谁应该赢。但是这个系统的问题就是给了裁判太多的自由，他可以写一堆不切合实际的东西，然后说“这是我的看法”，我们就还必须接受他的意见。另外，短评可以用裁判自己的语言写，然后别人翻译，或者直接用英语写。

-- Use a relative system: It is much easier to grade 2 videos relative to each other. We can use a +/- system to grade videos. We must make sure all judges understand the standards of the system and truly understand what a +1 means compared to +3 (for example).
-使用一个对比的方法：用这个对比方法会更简单（就是说拿两个battle的片放在一起，然后给其中一个片+X）。但我们首先要保证所有裁判明白这每加1分的意义。
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-- Spinners give their breakdown: Maybe if the videos came with a breakdown, it would be easier for judges to analyze the combo in great details without spending an immense amount of time. The only problem is that breakdowns require a lot of time to write and might need translation.
-给BD: 由参赛者附上BD给裁判，可以节省裁判的很多时间
（但是这条我个人认为不太实际）
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  n* I$ U) I; k- Number of communities: Last time, we had to merge some communities to reduce the number of teams. Ideally we need a system which can accept any number of teams, so that as many communities as possible can participate.
3 G/ E+ e" ~' k5 a6 h" g' \-参赛组织数：上次时候，我们不得已的合并了一些组织才减少了参赛组织数。这次我们最后能建立一个接受所有组织的系统，这样可以让更多的组织参与进来。
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' }5 l. u7 H( p9 x& g5 t$ y) ]! ~-> Solution: Most solutions require a way to eliminate a large number of teams during a preliminary round.
解决方法：大部分解决方法都需要在第一轮（或预赛）中淘汰掉一部分的参赛队伍

$ `  C+ Y9 @" B# M7 o  a* {-- Make a qualification event: We could create a qualification event which takes place before the main event. This could happen as early as Fall '09. One idea I had is to make a big "collab" battle. The collabs would then be graded in some fashion. The top collabs would then be qualified for the main event. The participating spinners could be anyone from each community, not just people who will take part of the final roster, since the final roster is likely to be small (6-8). This could give motivation for communities as a whole to work hard and make the collab to contribute to the qualification of their community. The qualification could apply to all communities or just a subset, with the others being already seeded. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. Only after the qualifications should the communities submit their final roster for the main event.
-预赛：我们可以建立一个预赛。这个可以在09年秋天就举行。我的主意是做一个大型的合片比赛。我们对这些合片进行审核，顶尖的几个组织进入决赛圈。参与这个合片的可以是每个组织里的任何人，不一定要是最终参赛的选手，这样可以让整个组织运作起来。预赛之后每个组织再决定谁去参与最后的比赛。

3 {% V  y6 y$ X+ ]2 [-- No qualification required? It's possible qualification is not even required. We could support 16 teams and I don't think there are much more than 16 communities out there. If there are however, maybe merging needs to occur or those extra teams need to settle on the final spot or something. However, 16 teams is a fairly large number and it would impose some big constraints on the structure of the tournament. I much prefer only 8 teams in the main event because it allows for more interesting structure.
-不进行预赛？当然也有可能，我们可以支持16支队伍，如果有16个以上的参赛组织，那我们可能又需要合并一些组织了。但是，我认为16支队伍太多了，会使组织很困难，我个人更希望8支队伍，这样我们可以安排出更有趣的结构。
（我同意，16个太多了，我觉得顶多10个，然后像上次一样分组）
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$ k3 C- Q% i2 H. I9 \- Time and number of rounds: We must make sure the event does not take too long. One round will take 1 month, since it takes more organization to gather the videos, but also to judge. The problem of the number of rounds is less apparent in a team event than in the WT. This is because not all spinners have to participate in every round. Teams can rely on their depth and rest spinners for certain rounds. It will be an interesting decision for a manager to evaluate whether having one of his top spinners (his "starter") at only 60-80% capacity (because he's been used for several rounds) is better than using a backup spinner at 100% capacity for one round only. Therefore there should be no problem if the WC requires 5 or 6 rounds. Time is the bigger factor.
7 R' i  t! c/ T# b, J: m1 L& _-时间与回合数：我们要保证这次活动不要持续太久。一轮大概会持续1个月。WC的轮数应该不会多于WT。每队可以有替补，领队可以决定要他的顶尖选手一直干，或把替补放上来。所以我认为5到6轮应该没有太大的问题。

- Seeding: In the last WC, we used a somewhat arbitrary method of seeding teams by using WT results. The problem is that the events are sparse and the world of PS can change dramatically within 1-2 years. Therefore, I don't think it would be the best idea to use, for instance, the WC08 results to seed the WC10.
. {* P( \5 V: ?! k% x' I-种子排位：上次，我们主观的使用了WT的结果作为种子排序。但是活动是间隔性的，而转笔界在1-2年就可以天翻地覆，所以我不认为这是个好主意。
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-> Solution: seeding could be integrated in the qualification process outlined earlier such that not only the top collabs get qualified, but the ranking of those collabs matter for seeding purposes.
解决方法：可以通过上面说的预赛来排位

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Here are some things I thought were done well last time and needs to be kept and/or improved upon:
! v+ C2 u; L7 P下面是一些我认为我们上次做的不错的地方，可以保留/改进：
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- Team concept: I thought the concept of teams to be well done and needs to be improved upon. We need a better way to seperate the responsabilities of each spinner within a team. This can be achieved through the concept of themes. By having themes which are fixed in advance, teams will have to build their roster based on those themes. This mean spinners should be chosen to cover a wide range of different themes. It also means each spinner will have a different role to accomplish and makes their abilities more meaningful. Not to mention that themes make judging more easy since battles are more likely to match combos of similar style.
-队伍概念：组队是一个不错的注意。但我们依然可以改进，通过给每个队员划分更明确的责任。比如通过主题battle这个概念。每场battle会有一个主题，这样组队的时候就会通过这些主题来考虑谁来参赛。这样就让每个参赛者都有不同的角色让他们的能力更有意义。另外这种主题观念也会让裁判打分更加容易。
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During a team vs team battle, the theme for each match in that battle is chosen or determined. THEN, the manager of each team sends their lineup, placing their spinners in the battles with specific themes. This means managers select their spinners which do well in the themes that are present.
' U. Z( E( @+ I  U5 }在team vs team的PK中，每场battle的主题都是定了的，然后领队发出的布阵中应该说明哪个参赛者去哪个主题的battle，就是说应该把最合适这个主题的参赛者放到最合适的位置。
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, s1 E) a. i/ g  C# Z1 P, n$ ~$ l0 P5 S-> There are many ways themes could be integrated:
有很多建立主题的方法

-- Totally fixed themes: suppose each team vs team battle comprises of 3 matches (2 singles, 1 double). Then we know in advance the themes of these matches before the tournament begins and every battle always use the same 3 themes for every battle. The advantage of this is that there is no luck and every team knows exactly what the themes are going to be. It's also easy to understand and simple. The problem is that it doesn't allow for much variety. Each team only need to make sure those 3 themes are covered, which means they are likely to roll with the same roster for every battle.
完全明确的主题：假设每个Team vs Team的PK中包括2个1v1的比赛，和一个2v2的比赛，那这3场battle的主题都是设定好的，每轮相同，这样每个组织都明确的知道他们要准备什么样的battle，就不会有任何的幸运成分在里面。很简单明了。但是这个方法的问题就在于没有多变性，可能会导致每轮都出同样的人。

-- Limited randomness: we could have a longer list of themes, and themes are regrouped in categories. For example, have a category for "technical" themes (speed, smoothness, difficulty, all-around), one for "original" themes (2 handed, 2 pens, stalls, use of body), one for "tricks" themes (infinity, continuous tricks, aerials, busts, backarounds, etc.). Then the three battles have three different categories and we select at random the theme from each category. This allows for some balancing over totally random themes in the sense that you won't pull out 3 themes that are very similar (3 "power tricks" themes like backaround, bust, aerials) and at the same time provides some variety. The problem is making sure everybody understand what each theme means (solved if communication is not a problem) and also that it's still possible for luck. For example, if a team totally suck at backaround but is godly at busts then you hope to draw the bust theme, although you could argue it's your team's fault for lacking depth and making sure you cover all themes.
& U: R9 _/ V3 L-带限制的随机：我们可以把主题分成几个类，比如一类技术性主题列表包括（速度，流畅，难度，或无主题全面比赛），一类创意主题包括（1P2H, 1H2P,静止，使用身体等等），一类招数主题包括（inf, cont, air, bust, backaround等等）。每个组织把参赛者放到每个分类里，然后随机从这个分类里随机选出一个主题。这样设置主题的问题就在与运气成分，比如一个组织的参赛者backaround很垃圾，但是bust是无敌的（怎么都感觉他在说Thai。。。囧），那他们就会祈祷不要在招数性主题里抽到back而抽到bust。
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-- Teams select themes: A list of possible themes is fixed before the WC begins. The two managers of a battle could then decide what the themes are going to be using some sort of mechanism. This could be interesting in the sense that the managers will try to select themes that not only maximizes their own abilities, but minimizes the opponent's, which requires greater analysis of opponents. Example, each manager selects the theme for one battle, and the doubles match always has no theme (just a all-around battle). After the themes are set, the lineups are then decided. As a manager, I would try to select a theme I'm good at and they're not. The problem is that this process might take too much time to resolve and might too complex to use.
6 x, D8 X8 ^0 i队伍自己选择主题：由两个领队各选一个主题，最后一个battle可以无主题。这样可以增加比赛的多样性，领队不光考虑自己的长处，也考虑对方的短处，选出最有利的主题。
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8 \7 v: r7 F# w  `- Multiple elimination: I liked the use of pools because it gave more opportunities for teams to participate longer. Since teams have more spinners than needed in a single round, it also gave the chance to every spinner to participate at least once (if their manager is willing, of course).
2 O4 Q3 @2 E1 C7 _, i! g* n多轮淘汰：我比较喜欢分组比赛赛制，这样可以让一些组织在比赛中多比几轮，每队都有替补，这样也可以给更多的参赛者几乎表现自己。

& @/ d+ K& m, D5 ?! M; T-- If we go with 8 teams, I would make 2 pools of 4 teams. Each team would then battle every other team in their own pool. This means 3 battles total. Each win is 3 points, tie 1, loss 0. The top 2 teams of each pools would then advance to the semi-finals, and then the finals. In total there would be 5 rounds, thus 5 months, which is reasonable.
5 ?  O' o; ^$ p) p( z9 R/ s如果我们有8队，那就应该有两组，每组4队。每队会轮流和他们组内剩下的队伍巡回比赛，就会有3轮。赢3分，平1分，输了0分。每组前2进入半决赛，然后决赛。这样总共5轮就是5个月，我认为可以接受。

-- With 16 teams, we could go with 4 pools and then either top 2 or top 1 of each pool advance to go to quarter/semifinals, for a total of 6 or 5 months. The only problem with 16 teams is that there will be 3 rounds with 64 participating spinners, which is a lot to grade for judges...
如果有16个队，我们可以做4组，每组4队。然后前2或者前1晋级。大概会有6个多月。但这样问题就在于裁判工作量会很大。
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-- Double-elimination knockout: In double-elimination, you must be eliminated twice to be out. In this format, the number of rounds is 4 for 8 teams, 5 for 16. I still like pools better though, because each team has the chance to battle more teams.
双淘汰制：每队输两次即被淘汰，这样8个队就是4轮，16个队就是5轮。但我个人还是喜欢分组赛制。
3 ~7 z& \- P9 \3 A* j* _（这个双淘汰制我也没怎么看懂。。。）

3 I# O2 E0 w3 W% F7 o' O转自：
http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=21074

0 P& ]% b% z$ {% m6 b9 C8 @( r, b本人正在翻译中
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; L" P! t2 o- P7 G  W[ 本帖最后由 yueyang126 于 2009-6-6 18:33 编辑 ]

hay27

等翻译啊等翻译·····

Keep.942

期待翻译啊翻译~~~~

hhhh033

水一...辛苦了...

Crazy、

晕,竟然没翻译!
期待翻译.

神龍摆伟

每个单词基本都认识，怎么连成句子就不认识了

轮回泪

发烧了…一看到这些就更晕了…

Messibest

期待期待！！.~~

wcgg110

翻译量还是比较大的。。。
水1辛苦了。。。

yueyang126

翻译了1/3发出来，继续翻译

妙笔々生花

一片迷茫   只好等翻译了

unqqunqq

水一辛苦。
  r& N2 o! ?6 X4 ~WC这名字…囧

Ulu

Zombo对WC的热心程度值得敬佩，规则的不足确实需要改进
水1您受累翻译下，我就等着看译文了 萨克有

wangqueshijie

认识挺多单词的。。但是不懂连句了。。。水一啊。。加油翻译吧

kyk241

这个英语，无法匹敌……